Ancient Seeds

Judean date palm - wikipedia image.

Going through my old seeds always makes me think about various efforts at germinating ancient seeds.  I like to search on those efforts.

I don't recall reading this one before  -

4,000 year old lentil germinated in Turkey.  Turkish newspaper article.   "Bingöl said the lentil is pretty weak – unlike its modern day versions – yet they hope it will be able to flower and produce seeds."  then....  obscurity.  Did it grow?  Did the seed turn out not to be 4,000 years old?  Heirloom-organics article on the same seedling.  According to wikipedia, as of 2010 this was not confirmed and not reported in science literature.

There's the Judean Date Palm, which has now bloomed for the 3rd time.   The tree came from an archeological dig, carbon dated at 2,000 years old, and the cultivar is thought to have gone extinct in 500 AD.  The tree turned out to be male.  Genetic tests revealed the cultivar is similar to Iraqi and Eqyptian dates, so a hybrid could generate a new lineage, 50:50 first generation, 75:25 2nd generation, etc?  Not knowing palm genetics, I don't know.  It would be a slow process.  It will also be interesting to see if other seeds from the same or other caches could be revived and germinated.  The seed was germinated by Elaine Solowey, director of the experimental orchard - "First she soaked the seeds in hot water to make them once again able to absorb liquids. Then she soaked them in a solution of nutrients followed by an enzymatic fertilizer made from seaweed."

 I don't find much else about germinating ancient seeds, that I haven't already read. 

Seed Organizing. Old Seeds.

Organized garden seed collection.

I organized the garden seed collection.  The packets were in boxes and scattered in drawers.  Some are old and may be dead.  There are multiple examples of multiple packets of the same or similar variety.  Wasteful on my part.

Now they are organized.  Each envelope is labeled with a category, such as Okra, Tomatoes, Peppers, Carrots & Radishes & Root vegetables, Squashes & Pumpkins, etc.  That way I can look in the envelope and see what I have.  For some I can do direct comparisons of different varieties this year, and see if there is a difference.

I should plant some of the oldest ones first this year.  Then if I have newer examples of the same variety, it should be good for next year.

Over the years I have germinated some pretty old seeds.  As I recall, some tomato seeds more than 5 years old, and some peppers more than 10 years old.  They are not in ideal seed storage conditions, just the house and some downstairs where it is cooler.

Bottom line is I have some old seeds to try.  I can plant old seeds and new seeds together, and compare the results.

This website "The Garden Bench" gives some expectations:

2 years: Sweet corn, lettuce, parsley, peppers, chard.
3 years: Bush and pole beans, carrots, cucumbers, melons, peas, squashes, tomatoes.
4: Radishes, turnips.
Seeds of annual flowers: 1 – 3 years
Seeds of perennials: 2 – 4 years.

From Gardening Know How - 
Corn and peppers - 2 years
Beans, peas, tomatos, carrots - 4 years
Cucumber, lettuce - 6 years

Tomatodirt.com-
Tomato seeds, depending on how stored and how germinated, can last 4 to 7 years, up to 10 years, and an expert has germinated 22 year old seeds.

Seedsavers forum discussion on germinating old seeds - they report using an organice nitrogen fertilizer soak, to improve germination.  Beans at 6 years old and cotton at 12 years old.  Tomatoes at 20 years old.

This writer reports seeds that were frozen for a couple of years, then stored in a cool room for about 10 years.  There was germination of at least a few, for most varieties.  That included tomatoes, brassicas, squash, cucumbers, peas, beans, and others.  Probably better than my storage conditions, but also longer.

From the Argonne National Laboratory website -
 "The Garden Dictionary lists corn, dandelion, onion, and parsnip seeds as having an average viability of two years. Beet, carrot, lettuce, squash, turnip, and watermelon seeds remain viable for an average of 5 or 6 years but under ideal conditions may exceed 10 years. Cucumber and endive seeds are good for 10 years at least."

From Iowa State University-

How long will vegetable seeds last if stored properly? -

Seed Type	Years	Seed Type	Years
Asparagus	3	Muskmelons	5
Beans	3	Onions	1
Beets	4	Peas	3
Broccoli	5	Peppers	2
Cabbage	5	Pumpkins	4
Carrots	3	Radishes	5
Cauliflower	5	Spinach	5
Corn	2	Squash	4
Cucumbers	5	Tomatoes	4
Lettuce	5	Watermelons	4

From 'Dirt Happy" website -

Estimated longevity of vegetable seeds, under good storage conditions.
5 years	4 years	3 years	2 years	1 year
Collards	Beets	Asparagus	Corn, sweet	Onion
Corn salad (mache)	Brussels Sprouts	Beans	Leek	Parsley
Cress	Cabbage	Broccoli	Okra	Parsnip
Cucumber	Cauliflower	Cabbage, Chinese	Pepper	Salsify
Endive	Chard, Swiss	Carrot		Scorzonera
Lettuce	Chicory	Celeriac
Muskmelon (Cantaloupe)	Eggplant	Celery
Spinach *	Kale	Kohlrabi
	Pumpkin	New Zealand Spinach
	Radish	Pea
	Rutabaga
	Sorrel
	Squash
	Tomato
	Turnip
	Watermelon

Seed Testing. Progress Report.

Very happy with this project.  I'm learning which seeds to plant when Spring arrives.  Also learning refinements on how to test them.

Batch prepared Jan 8.  So 4 days from starting.  The tomatoes have not sprouted.  Neither has the cilantro.  All, or almost all, of the Butternut Squash, Champion Radish, and Tevera bean have sprouted.

More stated Jan 8.  Nearly all of the seeds have sprouted - Black Seeded Simpson lettuce, Basil, Hailstone radish, Okra North/South, and early Cucumber.  The mesclun is a mix, some have sprouted, some not.

I composted these, to start another batch.  Except I ate the radish sprouts.

I'm very pleased with this method.  It's easy to set up, easy to see what sprouted, and quick.  So I did it again with more seeds.  This is Signet Marigold, 2006; Cayenne Pepper 2008, Tyee Spinach 2009, a Red Chinese Radish from 2003, Hungarian Yellow Wax Pepper 2006, and Red Icicle Radish, date not legible but starting 200 so probably 2009 or 2008.  That 2003 Radish is a long shot.

This is what I'm doing now.  Draw the lines and label the paper towel with ballppoint pen.  Lay on a piece of wax paper the same size.  Add some seeds of each variety.  Moisten the paper towel around the seeds, using a spoon to add water.  That holds the seeds in place.

Then fold over the paper towel, moisten so the entire towel is moist but not dripping wet.  Also fold over the wax paper.  The wax paper makes the paper towel easy to place into zip lock bag.  Place in zip lock bag.

Holding up to light, the seeds are easily viewed.  Sprouts show well, for seeds with vigorous or sturdy sprouts, like radishes, squash, beans, cucumbers.

Now they go onto the heating mat.  When I checked last year, it ran about 80 or 85 degrees F.

Seed Testing. Progress Report.

Most of the seeds from the first batch are done. It might be early to terminate the test. But I got what I wanted and for the most part don't need to incubate further. So will start another batch.

Percentages are not detailed.  They are my wild estimate.

Nings old bean seeds.  Not very promising. A few are swelling, none with root initials.  There is a little mold.  I will incubate another week.  These might be dead.

Della Fave bean 50% 2012=1 year old
French Breakfast Radish 90% 2010=3 year old
Scarlet Nantes Carrot 20% 2010=3 year old
Scallop Squash 50% unknown date, I'm guessing 2 or 3 years old

Taiwan Sugar Pea 75% 2012=1 year old
Roma II Bush Bean 50%  unknown date.  I'm guessing 2 years old.
Cherry Belle Radish 100% 2012=1 yaer old
Parisian Market Carrot 10% unknown date, I'm guessing 1 year old.

This might not have been enough time for the carrots.  I can plant thicker to use up the seeds, and thin out extra plants if needed.

New batch.

These seeds:
Lettuce Black Seeded Simpson 2012
Radish Hailstone 2010
Okra North and South Hybrid 2009
Basil Italian Large Leaf 2010
Mesclun Blend 2010
Early Pride Hybrid Cucumber 2010

Tomato Gold Nugget 2009
Radish Champion 2010
Squash Butterstick 2010
Cilantro 2012
Bush Bean Tavera 2011
Tomato Better Boy 2006



I changed a few things.
Getting the moist paper towel into the plastic bag was very awkward.  Even with a spatula.  So this time I folded a piece of wax paper over the paper towel.  That handled a lot easier.
I also marked with a ball point pen, on the paper towel instead of the bag.

Testing Seeds. Progress Report. Day 3.

Not sure about these Chinese beans.  But it's just 2 days.  Some are swelling.  Maybe a sign of life.

The squash are sprouting.  Ditto for the French Breakfast radishes,  The carrots are not sprouting yet.  The Della Fave pole beans are swelling a bit.

The Cherry Belle radishes, and Taiwan Sugar peas are sprouting.  Also a couple of the Roma II beans.  Not the carrots, yet,.

Testing Seeds

I have a lot of seeds from previous years. There is more planting room this year. I want to test some of them for viability, use them if they are viable. It's early. I can test a few at a time. In the past I used gallon-size ziploc bags, drew a grid on paper towel, and had many varieties per bag. This time I'm using sandwich size bags but otherwise similar.

Just 4 varieties per bag.  This is Cherry Belle radish (2012) , Taiwan Sugar Pea (2012), Parisian Market Carrot (no date - 2010?), and Roma II bean (2009).  They are all from 2012 so should be OK.

The beans labeled "Ning's Beans" must be 6 years old.  A Chinese bean.  It will be nice if they grow.  Not counting on it.

Scarlet Nantes carrot (2010), Della Fave pole bean (2012), Scallop bush squash (2008), and French Breakfast radish (2010).  I think the squash are 2010, no year on label.  The others are 2011.

All ziplocs are now on the heating mat.  I didn't count seeds.  If a few grow, or a lot grow, I'll try them.  If they don't, I won't.

Time Machine. 2006

From December 2006, same dogs, 6 years younger.  Different fireplace.


Tomatoes Summer 2006.  I think this was one of my better crops.


This is the fig tree I just moved to Battleground.  Summer 2006.  According to my notes then, I started it from a cutting Dec 2003/Jan 2004.


May 2006.  Sunny Disposition bearded iris.  I've moved a start to Battleground.  This is a good performer, increases well, blooms well even with neglect and grass/palm competition.


I was also reading about old and ancient seeds.  That Judean Date Palm is still growing.  The tree is male, so the only way we'll get a taste of the ancient dates, will be for it to be crossed with modern date palms, then back cross with the parent for a 75% ancient palm.  Probably not in my lifetime.  According to this blog, Methusaleh bloomed in 2011, so I hope they used it to pollinate a related palm and potentially have fruit from those trees in 2022.

Pepper seed sprouting experiment.

No need for photos. So far the following have sprouted:

(1) Cayenne pepper 2008 - 4 seeds.
(2) Red delicious pepper 2006 - 2 seeds.

I removed 3 of the Cayenne and the 2 Red Delicious to small containers containing moistened seed starting medium. I don't know if that will work, but there is plenty of time for failures. In fact, this may be way too early.

One Cayenne sprout was rotton-looking. Not promising, so it was discarded.

Pie Intermission: Pepper seeds.

The Pepper Seeds continue to incubate. I think one seed sprouted so far - a cayenne.

This method makes it easy to observe the results without opening the bag. However, I did open it briefly to let some air into it.

The thermometer reads 86 F. This article describes experiments on pepper seed germination - looks like 30C (about 86F) is about the highest you can go before viability drops off. Not much difference between 20C and 30C (68F and 86F). They didn't test lower, and the next higher temp, 35C (95F), gave a much poorer result. It took 6 to 10 days for 1/2 of the seeds to germinate. Based on this experiment, I don't need to heat them so warm, but the mat doesnt' give much temperature control. On the other hand, in seed starting medium, they will probably be a little cooler, due to medium between the seeds and the mat.

This article recommends 70F to 90F. They also recommend a presoak in dilute vinegar or dilute tea. This article also states the same thing.

There seems to be a whole subculture built around growing chilis. I have this book pretty good discussion of chili types, history, and cultivation.

Ecoseeds.com suggests that peat-based media inhibit either germination or growth of pepper seeds. I don't know how scientific their experiment was, but it's worth keeping in mind. Given that there is signiciant criticism regarding the environmental impact of peat harvesting, there may be some bias - no way for the reader to know.

One little sprout.

Here are the rest of the seeds.

Seed starting test #2. Mostly pepper seeds.

Seed viability test #2. Mostly peppers.

I decided to get out more old pepper seeds and see if they will start. Each square contains 10 seeds. Varieties are:

Aji Pepper 04
Cayeene Pepper 08
Portugal Pepper 08
Doe Hill Pepper 04
Alma Paprika Pepper 06
Red Delicious Pepper 06
Thumbelina Carrot (not pepper) 06
Louisiana Hot Pepper 04

I made the following changes in the method:
(1) The paper towel sits on a plastic sheet, cut from a thick plastic bag. That made it easier to handle when wet.
(2) I placed a layer of kitchen towel between the heating mat and the seed bag. This was because I was concerned the mat is too warm.
(3) I moistened the paper towels with a solution of 1/4 tsp miracle grow in 1 gallon of water.


Depending on what happens, if the pepper seeds germinate, I may try to keep a few as early starts. It's a bit too early for that, I think, but we'll see.

Seed Germination Experiment: 14 days & Conclusion

I wondered, just how warm is the heating mat. I placed a thermometer between the mat and the thin kitchen towel that covered it, left the thermometer in place overnight. A toasty 86F degrees. Wow!

I had unplugged the mat and forgotten it for 2 days, which may affect the results.

The additional seeds that sprouted were" Cherokee Purple tomato, all. Lemon Boy, all. Tabasco pepper, 2 more. Spinach, all.

Final results, including sprouted seeds that I removed to make the new ones countable:




Chinese Parsley 2005 0/10
Gambo Pepper 2004 0/10
Cherokee Purple Tom. 2009 10/10
Lemon Boy Tomato 2007 10/10
Lemon Boy Tomato 2006 10/10
Tabasco Pepper 2006 2/10
Tabasco Pepper unknown 0/10
Bulgarian Carrot Pep. 2008 10/10
Supersweet 100 Tom. 2007 10/10


Roma II Bush Bean 2008 10/10
Goldn Wax Bush Bean 2008 9/10
Scallop Bush Squash 2008 9/10
Roma Bush Bean 2009 10/10
Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 1 10/10
Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 2 10/10
Golden Nugget Tom. 2009 10/10
Spinach Savoy 2009 10/10
Black Krim Tomato 2008 10/10
Better Boy Tomato 2006 1/10

Seed Germination Experiment: 7 days

Chinese Parsley 2005 0/10

Gambo Pepper 2004 0/10

Cherokee Purple Tom. 2009 8/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2007 7/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2006 10/10

Tabasco Pepper 2006 0/10

Tabasco Pepper unknown 0/10

Bulgarian Carrot Pep. 2008 0/10

Supersweet 100 Tom. 2007 6/10

Roma II Bush Bean 2008 10/10

Goldn Wax Bush Bean 2008 9/10

Scallop Bush Squash 2008 9/10

Roma Bush Bean 2009 10/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 1 10/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 2 10/10

Golden Nugget Tom. 2009 9/10

Spinach Savoy 2009 8/10

Black Krim Tomato 2008 10/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2006 1/10

Seed Germination Experiment: 4 days

Now at 4 days. Many seeds have sprouted.


Chinese Parsley 2005 0/10

Gambo Pepper 2004 0/10

Cherokee Purple Tom. 2009 8/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2007 5/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2006 6/10

Tabasco Pepper 2006 0/10

Tabasco Pepper unknown 0/10

Bulgarian Carrot Pep. 2008 1/10

Supersweet 100 Tom. 2007 0/10

Roma II Bush Bean 2008 7/10

Goldn Wax Bush Bean 2008 8/10

Scallop Bush Squash 2008 7/10

Roma Bush Bean 2009 6/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 1 10/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 2 9/10

Golden Nugget Tom. 2009 2/10

Spinach Savoy 2009 6/10

Black Krim Tomato 2008 1/10

Better Boy Tomato 2006 0/10

If a count dropped - the seed may have fallen out. Plus, on the first count, it was very hard to see sprouts - kind of like a hanging chad.

I forgot to note on the first post - the water that I used contained very dilute orchid food - 1/2 of the strength used for normal daily watering. I don't know if that influenced the results or not.

I removed the larger grown seeds - squash, beans, radishes - to avoid overgrowing. The remainder went back into the bags and back on the warming mat.

4 days. Not bad.

Seed Germination Experiment: 2 days (60 hours)

Interesting result so far. I planted Sunday am, now it's Tues pm, roughly 60 hours.
Chinese Parsley 2005 0/10

Gambo Pepper 2004 0/10

Cherokee Purple Tom. 2009 3/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2007 3/10

Lemon Boy Tomato 2006 0/10

Tabasco Pepper 2006 0/10

Tabasco Pepper unknown 0/10

Bulgarian Carrot Pep. 2008 0/10

Supersweet 100 Tom. 2007 2/10

Roma II Bush Bean 2008 6/10

Goldn Wax Bush Bean 2008 8/10

Scallop Bush Squash 2008 4/10

Roma Bush Bean 2009 5/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 1 9/10

Icicle Radish 2008 pkt 2 9/10

Golden Nugget Tom. 2009 2/10

Spinach Savoy 2009 3/10

Black Krim Tomato 2008 2/10

Better Boy Tomato 2006 0/10

So far, very early, quite a lot of germination. This is a test of the packets to see what I can use this year, not a randomized-controlled trial of effects of age on germination. Still, it's interesting. The warmer certainly doesn't seem to hurt, and may well help.

The cat, of course, needs to get to the middle of it all. Probably thinking "this is where that large lumbering animal opens the little packages of yummy stinky fishy stuff for me. Maybe it will open one now! She then walks across a paper towel - well, no longer any semblance of sterile :-)

I did add another sheet of paper towel to each bag. They seem too moist.

We'll see how they look in another day or two.

Garden Log: Testing seeds for germination

As planned, this is the start of the germination testing for old seeds. The objective is to determine which packets might as well be composted, and which ones can be planted for this year's vegetable garden. I haven't done it this way in the past, so it's an experiment.



Two generic white paper towels, marked with squares and labeled with the seed varieties and year. The year is the year to sell, so they were one season old at that point. I wanted to test tomato varieties, peppers, and beans. There were also some squash, spinach, radish, and Chinese parsley seeds, so i thought, "why not".

The seed sizes are quite different, but I don't think that matters.

Covered with a paper towel, and very carefully slid into zipper type plastic bag. I did not lift them from the table, just slid, to avoid spilling seeds. This was the most difficult step, especially for round seeds.



I used a tablespoon to add water to the paper towels, about 1-2 tablespoons to each square. This was challenging, again trying to avoid spilling seeds from their designated squares. The labels became more visible when the paper towels were moist. Most of the seeds stayed in place. Once moist, they don't move around much. These photos are also my record, in case the labels become nonlegible.

Then moved to the seed warming pad. My main concern is that the pad is designed to have a seed flat sitting on it, and this method may cause overheating. It's not an exact science. I may give in and buy a thermometer. Regardless, it's a few months to seed starting season, so if this doesn't work, I can try again.

Ancient Palm Still Growing

Here is a link to the ancient Judean Date Palm that was grown from a 2000 year old seed. I can't post a photo becuse it is copyrighted.

Nice to see it is growing. Even if male, maybe it could be used as a pollen parent for new hybrids with modern varieties. Of course, what it most wanted is for it to be female. The it could be cloned and the actual dates would be Judean Dates, probably almost the same as the ancient varieties. My question now - if they can do DNA testing as noted in the article, then why don't they knoe if it is female? I understand gender in plant is different from animals, but still, it seems like DNA testing sould give an answer.

According to a wikipedia article, 2000 years ago there were thick forests of these palms along the Jordan River. The current date palms in Israel were imported from California, and originated in Iraq.

Spring Garden Diary

This is where things are currently.

The new little Desert King is either quite happy in this location, or it just gets to an earlier start compared to the other fig trees. It looks quite happy.

The garlic is knee high. These are on the south side of the house. The garlic in the front yard (north of house but still in sun) is not as large, but is also not from the 'prime' garlic bulbs (Inchelium red)

Grapes are starting to bloom. This is Venus, but other varietes are not far behind.

The recently planted beans have started to show. These were the Romano Bush Beans planted April 26th. About half are showing now. None of the corn or squash planted that day are up. Yesterday I planted some yellow string bush beans, and more romanos, after an overnight soak. Also replantged the corn after an overnight soak. I suspect the issue is soil temperature, but the soaking probably wont hurt anything and might speed germination. Also today I planted old seeds. I mixed together old packets of lettuce, mesclun, basil, spinach, and vegetable chrysanthemum, then planted thickly. These seeds are anywhere from 1 to 5 years old, and most probably wont grow. I didn't want to waste space for individual trials, so they are all planted together. Of note, this WSU publication gives life expectations for common vegetable seeds. They show lettuce, cucumber, and spinach seeds may be viable for 5-6 years; carrots beans and peas for 3-4 years. Maybe they WILL grow, after all. Oregon State say's don't presoak corn or beans at all - that this method damages seeds! Of note, I did presoak beans last year and they sprouted well, so who knows?

Here are some comments about presoaking seeds: This author - goes further and and discusses presprouting (chitting) his seeds. Hmmm... I'll have to try that. This author says DON'T soak bean seeds! Apparently they become more fragile when soaked. This author says DON'T soak them, due to concern for rotting! This author says DO presoak them! This author recommends presoaking certain seeds but doesn't address beans. Well, the consensus appears to be that I shouldn't have soaked them. We'll see if they grow! If no growth in 2 weeks, there is time to try again.

The chickens laid one egg each today. Must be the lengthening days, although I would like to think it is all of the weeds that I have been feeding them!

Seed starting.

Yesterday I had to leave work due to an amazingly painful back spasm. I couldn't believe how bad it was. I literally couldn't move from my chair - not even a couple of inches. Today it's about 80% better. Since it's my 'day off' anyway, instead of doing homework I mostly rested, but also planted a few seeds. You can't lay in bed all day (it's not recommended, even), and starting seeds in 3 oz. paper cups is not exactly heavy lifting.

Tomates and peppers. I planted the new seeds that I bought by mail order in december (Hybrid tomatoes including Supersweet 100, Lemon Boy, Better Boy, and Heirloom tomatoes including Ponderosa Red, Black Krim. Also some older seeds, Supersweet-100 about 1-year old, and 1-year old seeds of Black from Tula and Cherokee Purple. There were also peppers, including mail order Bulgarian Carrot and Portugal Hot, and older seeds including some old peppers that Ning had in the kitchen. Ning's peppers were brought from China about 8 years ago, and I grew some about 2 years ago but did not save seeds from those. So this is starting over again. The peppers were in a kitchen cabinet in an old zip-lock bag. Will they grow? Also a 3-year old packet of Tabasco peppers.

The paper cups were left over from last year, as was the seed starting medium (looks like about 3/4 peat moss and 1/4 perlite). The cups have holes drilled in the bottoms.

Here they are planted in the windowsill, south window. These little paper cups last about long enough for the plants to outgrow them, then basically fall apart. That's fine, they can be composted.

I thought that I was showing some self-discipline by waiting until today to plant them. Then I looked at last year's entry - they were planted March 25th. So about the same time.

Here is a gardenweb thread on old seeds. Some writers had seeds much older than these, in worse storage conditions, and they apparently germinated and grew. Here is someone who used 5-year old tomato seeds, with 35 of 40 varieties germinating. Here are some 120 year old seeds at Michigan State - fine, if you want Verbascum (but also hopeful for other types of seeds). They were placed in sand in bottles and buried - not exactly optimum storage for seeds, but who would have known, 120 years ago? Of course, there is the famous Judean Date that was sprouted after 2000 years in desert-dry storage. I did a search on the resultant palm, and 3 years later, it is still growing, and is 14 inches tall. According to the article, if it is female and if its DNA hasnt been damaged in it's 2000 year storage, it is expected to bear in about 2010. Maybe. Oh - here's another article about the Methusaleh palm. according to National Geographic, it was 3 feet tall in 05. I'm not sure about the discrepancy. Then there are these 500-year old canna seeds that germinated. They had been used to make a rattle, by native peoples of Argentina in about 1420. Here is the wikipedia artical on the oldest viable seed.